Warren Sapp vs. Gary Payton: NFL and NBA Player Comparisons

April 15, 2021

Welcome to BetUS Unfiltered Episode 26. Jonathan Hayes, is an American football coach and former tight end who was head coach and general manager of the St. Louis BattleHawks of the XFL. He joins the show to share his NFL experience with the BetUS Unfiltered Crew, Warren Sapp, Gary Payton and Dawn Lupal.

In today’s show:
00:00​ – 05:11​ Show, Hosts & Guest Intro (1:16​ – 5:11​ Jonathan Hayes Intro)
05:17​ – 09:23​ CFL & XFL Inside Info & Merger Possibilities
09:24​ – 20:13​ NFL Coaching Diversity
20:16​ – 31:05​ Player Recruitment, Development & Personalities
45:53​ – 47:42​ Edelman Retirement – Hall of Famer?
48:37​ – 1:06:22​ Hall of Fame Comparisons
What Matters Most: Money, Rings, or Hall of Fame?
1:06:36​ – 1:09:43​ Gary Payton’s The Fit with the Glove

Go Get your BetUS Sign up Bonus at https://cutt.ly/bfDJFce

Audio Podcast

PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION
Dawn Lupul:
Welcome to Unfiltered, brought to you by BetUS, America’s favorite sports book. Oh boy. You bet, you win. I’m not even going to not say it. Your ass gets paid. Your ass gets paid.

Warren Sapp:
Thank you.

Dawn Lupul:
We start it right off the bat and as per usual we have the star power with us today times three. Not me. That would be four. But three. So of course we have Warren Sapp. He’s looking good today. Warren, I saw your mama on Instagram the other day. I see where you get your good looks from.

Warren Sapp:
Thank you.

Dawn Lupul:
Mama Sapp.

Warren Sapp:
I always tell you baby, horses do not make sheep, dawg.

Dawn Lupul:
You’ve got that right. And I like that saying. And Gary Payton, or should we call him soon to be grandpa? Congratulations. Saw that on Instagram too. Your baby girl is having a baby.

Gary Payton:
Yeah. My oldest one’s having one too. He has his next month. They having a boy so I’m having two in one year. So I’m kind of happy, man. I’m going to be papa, man.

Warren Sapp:
Those called COVID babies. Them COVID babies. They was at the house.

Gary Payton:
Hey, it’s all good. I like it. I like it. I like it.

Dawn Lupul:
We like it. And we have a special guest today. All of our guests are special and this one extra specially so. Mr. Jonathan Hayes. Jonathan, thank you for joining us here on Unfiltered. Good to see you.

Jonathan Hayes:
Thanks for having me.

Dawn Lupul:
All right. Little intro here for Jonathan, of course. Got to pump some tires. He was a tight end, of course. Played in college for Iowa. And now he’s coaching. Played for the Kansas City Chiefs. You had a long career. Played for the Pittsburgh Steelers. From 1985 with Kansas City all the way to 1996 with Pittsburgh Steelers. That’s a long career, especially for a tight end. Then you went back to Oklahoma. Tight ends and special teams coach. From there, Cincinnati Bengals, the tight ends coach for 15 years. That’s amazing. And then most recently you were in the XFL coaching and General Manager of the St. Louis Battlehawks.

Dawn Lupul:
First question I have to ask you … Because we have to say it. Warren, horses don’t have sheep. The pedigree in your family is amazing. So your, what, 6’5″, Jonathan?

Jonathan Hayes:
I am.

Dawn Lupul:
Okay.

Jonathan Hayes:
I’m 6’5″.

Dawn Lupul:
So you produced a son, Jackson, who we might know. Of course we know. He’s a pro NBA player right now with New Orleans. He’s 6’11”, 220 pounds. What did you feed that child growing up?

Jonathan Hayes:
Well, I’d like to take all the credit but his mother gave him most of that basketball gene. Her dad’s 6’7″. She was an All American basketball player. She’s 5’11”. And my daughter made the all freshmen team at UC and she’s a basketball player. So the only thing I gave them, possibly, was some toughness and keep working and grinding because-

Warren Sapp:
Smart man. Put it on the wife. A happy wife, happy life. Good man.

Dawn Lupul:
A diplomat for sure. And of course we know your brother who is Jay Hayes. He was a defensive line coach from ’99 to 2017, mostly in Cincinnati but for the last two seasons in Tampa Bay. So the playing, the coaching pedigree in the family runs deep. I can just imagine what Thanksgivings are like in your house.

Jonathan Hayes:
Well, Warren keeps saying horses don’t have sheep. Well, in our house we say dogs don’t have cats. And the other saying in our house is we threw back the little ones. In our house all of them are big.

Warren Sapp:
No little ones.

Jonathan Hayes:
I’ve got one in the ninth grade. He’s 6’3″ and a half, 200 pounds. Plays football, basketball, lacrosse. I’ve got another that’s eighth grade. He’s six foot. He’s a little on the leaner side. He’s 155. And he plays football, basketball, and lacrosse. And my daughter, before she went off to college, she played basketball, volleyball, and she played soccer.

Dawn Lupul:
Wow.

Jonathan Hayes:
And my wife was a five sport athlete. So you didn’t sit around at our house. And now, it is a lot of smack talking about who’s the best of all time. Jackson tries to bring in, “Well, I was freshmen of the year.” And Julian says, “Well, I outscored you in high school. I outscored you my freshman year in …” So I mean, this is nonstop. And then the younger two are always talking smack too to each other. So it’s just fun to sit there and watch and watch them compete.

Dawn Lupul:
Of course, our guys here. Gary’s got Gary Payton II who is playing right now with Golden State and Warren is following the career of his daughter who’s an absolute all star goalie in soccer.

Jonathan Hayes:
Nice.

Dawn Lupul:
Yeah. Lots of pedigree to talk about on this show. We have you here for so many reasons. There’s a lot going on. You were most recently with the XFL. There’s chatter about the XFL and the CFL possibly joining forces. We can marry them together here. I’ve got both flags with me today. You like that?

Warren Sapp:
I see it.

Dawn Lupul:
You like that?

Jonathan Hayes:
You have props and everything.

Dawn Lupul:
Yeah. Well, that’s about the extent of it. That’s all I can afford.

Warren Sapp:
The hostesses with the mostesses.

Dawn Lupul:
What are you hearing about that? Is it something that you see going forward? I imagine there’s a lot of challenges.

Jonathan Hayes:
Yeah. Let’s be honest. First of all, as we were talking earlier, the biggest issue, one, is getting a TV contract done. If you can’t get it on TV, it’s not going to work. I don’t care how much streaming you’re going to do, you’ve got to get on TV and get it to the TV audience. The success that we were starting to have in the XFL was that Vince knew he was going to take a hit the first couple years. But with COVID, it stalled everything and he couldn’t financially carry the league until it restarted. And that’s what hurt him. Bankruptcy took place. All those things. Now Dwayne and Danny, along with RedBird Capital, buy the league. Well, their bigger issues obviously, once they bought the league, even though he has the star power, the bigger issue is getting the TV networks to buy the product. Because before, they were getting it for basically free from Vince and Vince knew he was going to take a hit the first three years and then on the third year he was going to start earning his money back.

Jonathan Hayes:
So that’s what’s been the most difficult, I think, for this new group is to try to find someone who wants to produce it. The other part is, as we know, the CFL had come down into the United States eight years ago and failed. I don’t think that the American public really want to see a lot of Canadian football. I’m just being honest. There’s nothing against their league. First of all, they’re playing with three downs where we play with four downs. The second part is the field’s much bigger. And the third the part is they’re playing with 12 players, we’re playing with 11 players.

Warren Sapp:
And they’re going towards the line of scrimmage.

Jonathan Hayes:
That’s right. Not to mention the motion. Running straight downhill at the line of scrimmage. So all those things are totally different to how we see football here in the states. In saying that, even if they decide to merge together … Let’s say they made a merger and they’re talking about going parallel with each other so that the Canadian league’s going to go on, the XFL’s going to go on, and then they’re going to have an interleague championship. Well, they were talking about interleague play, which would mean if you played up in Canada, the XFL team would have to take on the Canadian rules. If the Canadian team came down to America, they were talking about the Canadian team would take on our rules. And it’s too much disparity between the leagues to make it work. First of all, imagine, Warren, us going up to Canada, playing on a much bigger field with 12 players, you’ve got motion. We don’t understand the nuances of how to play that game. And vice versa for them. So it’s hard for me to see that come together in a way that would make sense for everyone to be able to enjoy and see.

Dawn Lupul:
No, for sure. I want to talk a bit about the … Well, we’ll get into the Rooney rule. Because you were a coach in the NFL for a long, long time. And of course the Rooney rule-

Jonathan Hayes:
Yeah. 16 years.

Dawn Lupul:
Yeah. And if you wanted to be back, it should be available to you to easily … I mean, there’s a lot of African American coaches who aren’t coaching in a head coaching role right now. I mean, I was surprised that Eric Bieniemy didn’t get picked up to a head coach role this year. You’ve got Pep Hamilton, who was in the XFL too, but he’s an excellent developer of young quarterbacks. Worked with Andrew Luck. Worked last year with the Chargers and did a great job there and now he’s with the Texans.

Jonathan Hayes:
Herbert.

Dawn Lupul:
Yeah, with Herbert. So what needs to change there in terms of minority hiring in your opinion?

Jonathan Hayes:
Well, a couple things. One, obviously, the changes aren’t going to be made just because we say there should be change. You have owners who have paid the privilege to be an owner. And they assimilate to people they’re familiar with.

Warren Sapp:
There you go.

Jonathan Hayes:
That’s just a fact. It’s no different than you or me, we’re going to be around people we’re more comfortable with. So to sit here and say, “Well, so and so has to hire someone.” Well, you see what happened this past year. No one abided by that. They can dress it up and put lipstick on a pig, but it’s still a pig. Let’s be honest.

Warren Sapp:
An ugly, stanking pig too.

Jonathan Hayes:
And for me, I’m 58 years old. I understand the dynamics of this league. Like I said, I played in the league for 12 years. I coached in it for 16. And then I became a head coach. It got cut short. But the one thing I do understand and I do know is the nuances of being a head coach has lost its way. When I was coming into the league, and even before that, it was all white head coaches. Let’s be honest. But the one thing I learned … I was fortunate enough to be on a staff in Kansas City with Tony Dungy. He was the DB coach out there and he had been a defensive coordinator at Pittsburgh for years. He came over when Marty took the job in Kansas City. He was the DB coach. Bruce Arians was the running back coach. Bill Cowher became the defensive coordinator that he brought down with him from Cleveland. At the time, Bill had only coached special teams. He was the special teams coordinator up in Cleveland. Then he gets the coordinator’s job in Kansas City.

Jonathan Hayes:
In saying all that … And I’m missing … Joe Pendry was there. Howard Mudd. Well known offensive line coach. Al Saunders had already been a head coach. All these guys with the experience and they were leader of men. Now all they talk about is this guy’s a guru. He’s a defensive guru. He’s an offensive guru. But the problem is, you’ve seen what happens when they get those positions of head coaching. It’s not their fault. I’m not blaming them and I’m not begrudging them the opportunity. The problem the ownership is missing, one of the components is being a leader of men. Can you stand up in front of a team and tell them to run through that brick wall even though they don’t want to?

Warren Sapp:
And they don’t hesitate.

Jonathan Hayes:
And that’s what you’re losing when you’re hiring all these young coaches because they have this. And Warren and Gary, you know this. The one thing that drives me crazy is all these coaches act like they’ve invented football. All we do is copy what all these other coaches have done.

Warren Sapp:
Copycat league.

Jonathan Hayes:
It’s a copycat league. So no one’s … You’re reinventing stuff, but it is not yours.

Dawn Lupul:
Gary, I want to bring you in because you have your coaching aspirations as well. Obviously, that’s something, Jonathan, I’m not sure if you know, but Gary is very interested in doing some coaching. What kind of coach do you see yourself as being Gary? The rara guy or more of the educator, teacher?

Gary Payton:
I think, Dawn, what Jonathan know and what Warren know, I’m a old school guy. I came from the old school. I’m going to go and do what I have to do to make me feel comfortable. I’m not going to adjust to players. I’m going to have the players adjust to me. They’re going to have to come in, they’re going to have to work hard. I was taught in a way of I had practices, I had double days, and I came out and worked and did the things that I had to do to earn a starting position or earn my position. Not just given to it because I’m that player or that player that I got drafted at that level. I really respect when I came into the league when I was the second pick, when I had Casey Jones. He just didn’t give me the job. When I went in there and I wasn’t ready, he sat me on the bench. I was only playing the first and the third quarter. And he was like, “You’re not good enough to play for me yet.” You know what I’m saying? And it was like that. And I had to accept that because I thought I was the second pick and I was this and that, but I wasn’t ready to be in this league. And people were showing me that.

Gary Payton:
So when I get to my head coaching job, I’m going to make players accountable. You’re going to have to come in and play. If you want to take this guy’s spot, I don’t care who he is, if I recruited him as a top player but you’re outplaying him, I’m going to try to win. That’s what I’m trying to do. I’m trying to win, I’m trying to make a program be good, and I’m going to try to make players always come out to play every night hard and leave it on the floor. And that’s just the way it is. And what do we say? We copycat everything. I’m going to go in there and do the same thing. I’m going to run something … What George Karl has taught me when I was coming up, what Ralph Miller taught me, I’m going to run the same type of offense but I’m just going to put a little spin on it to make it be what the players like. The players like running and gunning but they’re going to play a system where I say, “Okay. You play the system and if you get it, get out and go. Get you a layup. Get you what you’re going to do. If you impress me, I will let you play this way. But if you don’t, you’re going to play my way because I think my way is going to work.”

Gary Payton:
You know what I’m saying? But if you impress me with what you’re doing and you’re scoring and we’re being productive with it, yes, I’m going to let you do it. But we’re going to have structure. We’re going to practice. We’re going to know what to do. You’re going to learn, you’re going to listen, and you’re going to work hard. That’s all I’m going to go with my players. You work hard, you leave it on the floor, and you come in here serious every day, I can deal with that.

Warren Sapp:
That’s a leader of men, Gary.

Dawn Lupul:
That’s a leader of men.

Jonathan Hayes:
Yeah. That’s right.

Dawn Lupul:
And a good evaluator too. Go ahead Jonathan.

Jonathan Hayes:
Let’s be clear. I mean, that doesn’t mean Gary’s not going to nurture players and train them and teach them. Because they’re going to make mistakes. Trust me.

Gary Payton:
Right.

Jonathan Hayes:
Not only are you coaching your players, you’re coaching your coaches as the head coach. That’s the thing I had to really understand. And thank goodness, Marvin Lewis taught me that early. He always said that to me. He said, “Jonathan, if you ever get to sit in my seat, understand you’re not only coaching your players, you’re coaching your coaches.” And the other part of it is this. The players know. Warren, I’m going to direct this at you. Players know. Gary, I know you know. But Warren, if a coach is standing up there talking and all of a sudden you’re like, “Nah. You’re totally wrong.” And they’re disconnect. My point is that players have to trust coaches, coaches have to trust players. But you have to build that trust and build that relationship, develop that relationship to the point where even though … If the trainer came out and said, “Well, Warren shouldn’t practice today.” And he’s been killing it. I’m like, “Okay. Get him on the bike. Get him rehab.” I know he’ll know it mentally. But if you’ve got guys that don’t understand it and then they’re trying to skip out or they just aren’t ready. Like Gary said, sometimes you aren’t ready.

Jonathan Hayes:
That perfect example was my son this year. Stan sat Jackson down. And we talked, and I told him, I said, “I don’t want to hear you complain. The only thing I want to hear that you’re doing, you’re spending extra time in that gym or you’re putting up extra shots and you’re learning exactly how he wants it done.” I said, “And I know what that’s like to have a coach fired and a new coach come in. Because now the environment changes.” We all know that. And that’s where … The difference in basketball, and Gary you know this, they start so young. I mean, Jackson … Think about it. My son was 18 when he got drafted. I can’t imagine my mindset at 18. He played his first year at 19. Now he’s just 20. He’s just learning how to be a pro. And we use that term all the time. And what does that mean? That means you have to understand what your responsibility is as a young man. No one cares now. No one’s going to run and chase you to class anymore. No one’s going to tell you, “You better be on time. You’ve got to get here to this place.”

Jonathan Hayes:
You ain’t there, they’re going to put their hand in your pocket and take your money. You ain’t on time for the plane, they’re going to just take your money. Then after a while they’re going to get tired of you and grow old of you and get rid of you. And that’s what being a pro means is doing things the right way all the time. And there’s still going to be bumps in the road, but as long as you’re showing people progress and development, then you’re going to be all right.

Dawn Lupul:
We have some stats coming up a little bit later for Warren and Gary and I’m pretty sure they’re going to just love that segment. In terms of evaluating players … But first I have to ask, Warren, how coachable were you? Were you easy to coach?

Warren Sapp:
Oh no. I don’t want my coach nowhere in my in face. And whenever Marinelli’s yelling at me, I used to say to myself, “He ain’t talking to me, he talking to them.” I didn’t make many mistakes. I mean, I didn’t want a coach in my face. I wanted to play perfect and I knew I couldn’t. But I knew I could trample excellence and greatness trying to get to perfection. I knew I wasn’t going to play a perfect game, but I was going to put every effort I could in it because there was 10 other people counting on me. And when you play on the defense, it doesn’t take but one person to be in the wrong spot and the ball hits his head on the goalpost. I remember one time we had Michael Bennett, we were playing Minnesota, and we scooted out of the little gap and he went up the A gap. I looked at Derrick Brooks, I said, “He gone.” 85 yards later he was in the end zone. So it does not take long for you to figure out that everybody needs to be where they’re supposed to be and be accountable to everybody in that huddle and that was the biggest thing we ran was accountability. You’re accountable to us before we ever get back to that sideline. Damn coach. You’re going to have to see me.

Dawn Lupul:
And that’s the X factor that I think is really important to understand here because there analytics, there’s stats, and then there’s that X factor. And Jonathan, I’m sure you know, there’s looking at numbers and then there’s evaluating players by your eye. I’ll give you an example for this. In the past 20 years, 59 quarterbacks have been drafted in the first round. Of those 59, only 15 have met expectations, have lived up to expectations. It’s a difference between drafting Manning or Leaf. Mahomes or Trubisky. It’s a very, very fine line. So how important is it to get a feel for the players beyond the numbers, Jonathan?

Jonathan Hayes:
I think the one thing that gave us opportunity when I was in Cincinnati was the Senior Bowl. Because when we coached in it … Needless to say, our first year there we coached in it because we had taken over a 2-14 team. And then we had two down years and we coached in it two more times with Marvin. After those years though, after each one of those years, we had a really good draft and had successful years. Because you’re with them all week long. You understand how they learn. Are they visual learners? Are they audio learners? Are they both? Do they need poked and prodded or do they just need someone to put an arm around them because they’ve never had someone that they could trust? All those things come into factor because … You were talking about the fine line of when you’re drafting someone, especially the first pick. We had the first pick the very first year there and we took Carson Palmer. And it was a great get for us. Fortunately though, we also had some receivers. We also were able to sit Carson for a year. We just sat him and let him learn.

Jonathan Hayes:
Nowadays you don’t have that option. They’re not going to let you sit a quarterback for a year because his clock’s already ticking soon as he comes in. If he signs a four year deal, well, there’s only three years left on his deal now. So that’s why now you’re seeing even more failure in my opinion. The other part of it is, the reason why you’re seeing these failures in my opinion, you have the 20 hour rule in college. So what does that do? For a boxer to prepare for a fight, what does he have to do? He has to spar. There’s not as much sparring in football anymore. They’ve taken away a lot of the hitting. Which I understand because of the concussions and things like that. But there comes a point where you have to be able to learn how to take a hit and fall and all those things so that you don’t get hurt. And I think sometimes we lose sight of that side of it. I love when I hear commentators say, “They had some contact there.” Football is not a contact sport. It is a collision sport sometimes having contact. Basketball, baseball, any of those other sports are contact sports sometimes having a collision.

Jonathan Hayes:
At home plate baseball has a collision. Or two basketball players are running for a ball and run into each other in a collision.

Warren Sapp:
That’s a foul.

Jonathan Hayes:
But there is not many times it’s not a collision. And that’s just part of the game. And if you don’t understand that or you don’t like that, you shouldn’t play.

Dawn Lupul:
Tennis Warren? What are you colliding with in tennis?

Warren Sapp:
I thought he was talking about non-contact. That is non-contact.

Dawn Lupul:
Non-contact. Yeah. Sometimes they run into the ball boys or the nets or something like that.

Warren Sapp:
No, they don’t hit the ball boy. Stop that.

Dawn Lupul:
Jonathan, I know we don’t get to keep you much longer but I have one question I want the guys to weigh in on too.

Jonathan Hayes:
Oh no, go ahead. I’m good. I’m still good on time. You’re good.

Dawn Lupul:
Okay, good. Okay. Well, you let us know when you have to head out. Because I want to know, obviously this year’s even more different, more crazy than normal with that thing that’s going around, that little thing in the world that’s happening. So with no combine, oh my goodness, I can’t even imagine evaluating talent.

Warren Sapp:
No, they had a combine.

Dawn Lupul:
Well, they’re having a lot of pro days.

Warren Sapp:
They had a combine.

Dawn Lupul:
It’s different though, Warren.

Warren Sapp:
No, they had a combine. I hit my doctor. He’s like, “I’m at the combine.” I’m like, “They actually having one?” I think they thought they were going to miss too many people in the medicals so they had to fire it up.

Jonathan Hayes:
Yeah. You know what they’re doing Warren? They’re sending people to the combine for the medical. So they’re getting all the medicals but the workouts are still-

Warren Sapp:
Yeah. They getting the medical. Yeah. They don’t care about no workout. They want that medical. They want to poke and prod you. They want to poke and prod you. Yes lord.

Dawn Lupul:
You’re getting checked out.

Jonathan Hayes:
Well, of course. I mean, how many times have they made mistakes on guys because they hadn’t seen them enough, they hadn’t looked at their scripts? Now, a lot of teams have a scouting department done and all those things so coaches aren’t as involved in the scouting. At Cincinnati we had five scouts so as soon as the season ended we were out on the road working guys out. Well, I take that back. The first thing we had to do as soon as the season ended, whether we got to the first round of the playoffs, as soon as that week was over then I have to go upstairs, look at the board who the five scouts had put on the board, and then I’d have to start making my own list of the players that are eligible for the draft. Then make my own tapes. Make my own catch tapes, this tape. And normally I’d do about 50 to 70 guys. Because you’re going through seven rounds of the draft. And I had to see, not just the top players, but the bottom of your roster. That’s where you make your hay. And that’s where we had our biggest issues. Marvin had his biggest arguments with Mr. Brown over the bottom half of the roster because in Mike’s eyes, he used it more to develop players.

Jonathan Hayes:
He’d leave them on the practiced squad for three years, two years. And Marvin wanted them. No. We’ve got to keep moving them out. We know what those guys are. If we need to bring them back, we’ll bring them back. If someone picks them up, so be it. But we’re not losing that. We lost out on guys that we could have brought in and we still had … So we go to … I’m going to use a perfect example. We go to Indianapolis. Played a playoff game up there. Well, we had AJ was out, Gresham was out, our left tackle was out. Yeah, Whit was out.

Warren Sapp:
Whitmore.

Jonathan Hayes:
And so we didn’t have … Not to mention the defensive guys. I’m selfish because I was an offensive coach. Not to mention the defensive guys. But that’s where Philadelphia, they’re missing their left and right tackle and their quarterback and they won the damn Super Bowl. Because they understood the importance of the depth of the team in the back end of the roster. The only way you’re going to be successful is by understanding that and building your team from the inside out. I was fortunate enough to be a head coach and the first thing Trey Brown and I said … And I think Trey, if he doesn’t get an opportunity to be a GM, it’s a shame. But the one thing I said to Trey is, “We have to build it inside out.” We knew who our quarterbacks were. We had Jordan Ta’amu. Ends up going to Kansas City. They picked him up right after the XFL. Then Taylor Heinicke, who ends up starting in the playoffs in Washington. So those were our two quarterbacks. So we knew what we had already there. Even though we had a 70 round draft. The first thing I said, “We’ve got to get people that can play D and O line. We’ve got to protect this young kid and be able to run the rock.”

Jonathan Hayes:
Then we had big running backs. And then we had guys that could run on the outside. And then the little wiggle guys inside. But we started with the big people. And so many times … This is what is going to be interesting. You’re talking about the quarterbacks that have failed. But how many of those offensive linemen and D-linemen are pass specialists that have failed too early in the draft? Just-

Warren Sapp:
Way more.

Jonathan Hayes:
Of numbers.

Warren Sapp:
Way more.

Jonathan Hayes:
Yeah. I mean-

Warren Sapp:
I think they’re on the 21st next Warren Sapp.

Jonathan Hayes:
Exactly. My point.

Dawn Lupul:
Is there another one? Is there a next Warren Sapp?

Warren Sapp:
No, no. He in college. He college. He got the name and everything but he just ain’t as big.

Dawn Lupul:
They still look for the next baby Sapp when they go to the drafts. I know that.

Warren Sapp:
I’m telling you. They’ve been looking for over 20 years. If it wasn’t for Aaron Donald …

Dawn Lupul:
We wouldn’t have him at all. That’s awesome. I know Jonathan, I think we’re treading on your time here, but I do have a question to pose. Gary, I already got you in this because I proposed something, I saw something today. So Jonathan, Gary’s a … He’s a big supporter of the 49ers.

Jonathan Hayes:
That’s all right.

Dawn Lupul:
They need a quarterback. They kind of need a quarterback. Jimmy Garropolo, Gaflopolo isn’t working out. So somebody proposed and I think it’s great, trade the third pick and Garropolo for Aaron Rodgers. That would work okay. But if you’re evaluating quarterbacks this year-

Jonathan Hayes:
The third pick in the draft? Is that all you think Green Bay’s going to want for Aaron?

Dawn Lupul:
And whatever else it takes.

Warren Sapp:
Thank you Mr. Hayes. Tell her.

Dawn Lupul:
Whatever [crosstalk 00:31:46].

Jonathan Hayes:
You better back up the Brinks truck and give them … On a serious note, think about the amount you’re going to have to give. You’re going to have to give your next two first round draft picks for Aaron and, not to mention, a second and a third.

Dawn Lupul:
But they also have a very talented young quarterback who they drafted last year who-

Warren Sapp:
Yeah, but he ain’t Aaron Rodgers.

Jonathan Hayes:
He ain’t Aaron Rodgers.

Warren Sapp:
He ain’t Aaron Rodgers.

Jonathan Hayes:
I mean, everything-

Dawn Lupul:
Give him a chance. He might be.

Jonathan Hayes:
And now, the way San Francisco plays, it fits what he does. All the ball fakes, all the play fakes. I mean, he’s going to be launching balls down the field over people’s head. Because it fits him. I mean, that offense is really fit for what he does. When I was in Kansas City, my last year there Joe Montana came to our team. And Paul Hackett was our offensive coordinator. Marty had finally got rid of Joe Pendry who had been by his side for years. And people had put pressure on Marty that we can’t be a three yard in a cloud of dust. So the play action pass had become very popular. The west coast offense. All those things. And Warren was part of it when Gruden came to Tampa Bay. The one thing that it does for everyone, everyone gets touches in that offense. Everyone gets touches. So no one’s disgruntled. That’s why TO loved it so much. He got touches. Even though Jerry was on the other side of the field. When TO was younger, he still was getting touches with Jerry being on the other side of the field.

Warren Sapp:
He caught 21 balls with Jerry on the other side of the field.

Jonathan Hayes:
That’s what I’m saying.

Warren Sapp:
On Jerry Rice day.

Jonathan Hayes:
Yeah. That’s what makes that offense so great. So when Joe came and they’d already figured they were trying to go get him, I mean, we go to the AFC championship game. We lose up in Buffalo. We’re leading going into halftime. Joe gets the crap knocked out of him in early 3rd quarter and we lose the game. And that was one of Marty’s, along with the fumble in Cleveland, one of his toughest losses. God rest his soul. Because earlier on, I’m going to circle back to something, we were talking about leader of men. Having Tony Dungy there every day, having Marty there every day, having people like that set an example for us. I put my own spin. Of course I had to be authentic to Jonathan Hayes. But it taught me how to handle people, how to treat people, how to be real with people. And the one thing … And I was going back to what Gary was talking about and I wanted to bring this up and it just came back in my mind is players, athletes, whether you’re pro, college, high school, does not matter, want to be told the truth. As long as you don’t try to make it so that it’s all crap and you’re just trying to protect yourself, they’re fine with it.

Jonathan Hayes:
They might be pissed, but they’re fine to understand that, “You know what, he’s being honest with me. He’s always got my back. He’s never misled me. So he believes in me.” Jermaine Gresham, a young man that I coached. He’s from University of Oklahoma. Love him to death. And he and I had wars at times. But the one thing he knew is I was never going to betray our trust. And never better have betrayed mine. Those were the learning things that we went through early that he had to understand that I’m not going to allow you to do these things, but I also got your back. And when he went to Arizona to play, he wouldn’t even come talk to me before the game. I could tell he was all geeked up and everything. After the game he came and found me at the bus and we sat there and hugged. And we’re both sitting there crying, and I love him like a son, but he knew and he said, “Coach, thank you and I’m sorry.” And I said, “You don’t ever have to apologize. You were just being you. You just had to understand that I was trying to help you to get to where you wanted to go.”

Dawn Lupul:
That’s beautiful. You represent yourself so well. I think that you should be in the league coaching again. What do you think guys? You make me want to put the helmet and pads on and that would not be pretty at all. You’ve got me all motivated, ready to run through walls.

Warren Sapp:
I think it’d look good Dawn. It might not turn out good but I think the visual would be all right though.

Dawn Lupul:
It might mess with my hair a little bit.

Warren Sapp:
Oh, definitely.

Dawn Lupul:
Jonathan, thank you. Yeah, definitely. Thank you so much. And we look forward to hearing more from you. I mean, just the words that you spoke today and really the way that you represent your craft as a coach. You’ve obviously spent a lot of time honing your skills and I think you’ve done an amazing job.

Jonathan Hayes:
Well, thank you.

Gary Payton:
Dawn, could I say this to Jonathan?

Dawn Lupul:
Yeah.

Gary Payton:
Jonathan, we need to have more in all our sports what you bring to the table and what you’re saying. Because some of these young kids now are getting so much catered to what their sport is now and why they’re getting this money and these owners and stuff and they don’t have guys like yourself, me, or Warren who will coach them and coach them the right way to get them better. They always get what they want. In basketball we’ve got people only averaging five points getting $85 million, $100 million and haven’t proven their self in any way and don’t even have that ability. And then all of a sudden in two years, they’re done. But they’re collecting checks every day for $20 million a year. And we need that. And now people are talking about, “Oh, we got to adjust to the times.” I’m not adjusting to the times. They’re going to adjust to my times. You know what I’m saying? I’m going to let them do, like I said, what they want to do if they prove to me they can do it. That’s the only way it’s going to happen with me. You know what I’m saying? And that’s the only way I’ve been taught, it’s the only way I grew up, it’s the only way I came up, and that’s just the way it is.

Gary Payton:
But Jonathan, you’ve got great … Listen, you’ve been around some greats. And it’s a shame that you’re not helping none of these kids get to where they’re at right now in this league. And that’s what they really need. They need to hear the truth and hear what’s going to make them better and may keep them in the league. You know what I’m saying? Because there ain’t too many people be over 10 years. You played 12. I played 17. Warren is right there with us. That’s because we’re dedicated to what we wanted to do and we was true to our game and we went on there every day and did what we did on our fields and we played and we held ourself accountable for what we done. And I just want to complement you for that.

Dawn Lupul:
Here, here.

Jonathan Hayes:
Well, I appreciate that Gary. And we all know that the commitment is up to you. And I think where it has failed us is young people general … You have to have someone to steer you. I told Jackson, I said, “Son …” And he was a two sport kid at the time. And the basketball coach was trying to guide him just to basketball and the football coach just let him play. So our point was look, he’s going to do what he’s going to do. This is his life. It’s not my life. But here’s the thing that I found out happening more and more was AAU has really taken control of high school sports. And with that, they are now being the brokers in all these deals. And that’s what really has taken and screwed things up. And they’re not getting the real advice they need. To be told, “No, you’re not what you think you are. Now, you might be able to get there through hard work, dedication, and committing yourself, but it’s not just going to be rolled out to you.”

Jonathan Hayes:
And even saying that, sometimes, like you said, they’ll be a lottery pick. But then they don’t realize how much they need to sustain it. What they need to do to be a pro and make sure they understand the dedication. My daughter … I’m just going to speak on her for a second. I’m so proud of her. She went through COVID this year, first year freshman, made dean’s list, made all freshmen team, AAC, playing at University of Cincinnati. And she came in playing the wing, playing three. So Gary, you know how hard this is. She’s playing the wing. They moved her to five. Then at the end of the year she was playing point guard. That’s her versatility.

Gary Payton:
That’s nice.

Jonathan Hayes:
But the reason she could do it, it wasn’t because it started at practice during basketball season. She was out here during COVID when school was canceled they were on Zoom. Soon as she got done with class she’d say, “Dad, can you time me?” Running up and down the street. Then we’d lift. And I’d make the boys lift too. I’m not training athletes, I’m training people to be better human beings. To go out there and be committed in whatever it is you do. And they all know that and their mother’s the same way. Their mother works on the nuances of their shots. Christie’s … I’m bragging on my wife. She averaged 60 some points a game in high school. And then in college she averaged over 28 points a game at University of Drake there in Des Moines. So she knows how to score. So she taught the kids how to score. She says sometimes, “I must have taken all the scoring because y’all don’t want to score enough.” That’s what she tells them. But she would go out there and catch and rebound and we did it with all the kids. Because that’s the important part of it. We all know. You might not have a parent, but find somebody that will help and push you forward. That is positive in your life. That makes a difference in your life.

Jonathan Hayes:
Don’t keep hanging out with the knuckleheads dragging you down. No one wants to say it, but that’s the truth. You want a positive life, you want … And let’s be honest, we’re all flawed. I’m flawed as much as anyone. But I know every day I got to get up and try again. And that’s all you ask for.

Dawn Lupul:
I like it. And I tell you what, owners, this guys is just … He’s a find. He’s a treasure. And if you don’t know what you’re getting and you want to stick with the familiar, this is the guy you want on your sidelines because not only is he an excellent coach, he’s just an excellent human being. Thank you so much for stopping by Jonathan.

Jonathan Hayes:
Thank you guys. Really enjoyed it. Thanks guys.

Warren Sapp:
Thank you brother.

Jonathan Hayes:
Great seeing you.

Gary Payton:
Thank you.

Jonathan Hayes:
All right.

Dawn Lupul:
All right. Soon to be seen back on the sidelines. Guys, that was nice. That was inspirational. And again, I’m not putting the helmet on. But I feel like it. I feel like I could run through walls now and do stuff. Okay. Let’s get into this because I have a couple topics I want to hit on just quickly. Who’s off the board first? This is an easy one for the draft. Mac Jones, Trey Lance, or Justin Fields? Gary, who’s first off the board?

Gary Payton:
Well, I hope Justin Fields be if he comes to the 49ers with the third pick. That’s what I hope. I don’t know what the Jets are going to do. I think the Jets will pick Mac Jones for their quarterback. I don’t know if they would choose Lance. They should. I think Lance should go, but I think if we go, I want Justin Fields. But if Lance is there, I think we should pick Lance. But my gut feeling, the Jets will go with Jones.

Warren Sapp:
If the Jets go with Jones they should blow up the whole damn stadium. And I know two teams play in there, but boy, if they pass up on that boy Justin Fields, they’ve lost they damn mind. Mac Jones is not that. Hell nah. When you play with super men it’s a lot easier to dump off a five yard pass. Hell nah. The whole city of New York going to be standing on his shoulders. From Tuscaloosa to Broadway? Yeah, right.

Dawn Lupul:
I like Trey Lance a little bit. He’s kind of [crosstalk 00:45:35]-

Warren Sapp:
Trey Lance. Trey Lance, but Justin’s going after Trey. Trey going first, then Justin. And I’m telling you if you pick this Mac Jones guy, you might as well just fire yourself.

Dawn Lupul:
Blow it up.

Warren Sapp:
First yourself.

Dawn Lupul:
Fire yourself. I’m fired. And then you can hire Jonathan. That would be something to do. Okay, here’s a quickie for you. Edelman, Hall of Famer or not? Warren? Julian Edelman.

Warren Sapp:
You can’t be talking to me.

Dawn Lupul:
Why?

Warren Sapp:
Where’s his numbers at dawg?

Dawn Lupul:
They’re not very good. Compared to somebody like Hines Ward, they’re not.

Warren Sapp:
Exactly. And Hines Ward ain’t in the hall.

Dawn Lupul:
No. So that’s not even a-

Warren Sapp:
It ain’t even nothing to talk about.

Dawn Lupul:
People are talking about it.

Warren Sapp:
No, they’re not. They just running their damn mouth about something that don’t make no sense. That boy ain’t got no resume. That boy ain’t got no resume for no hall.

Gary Payton:
No, they just put that out there because he played with Tom Brady. He had a couple catches when they won Super Bowls. Like Warren’s saying, and you know that’s Warren’s sport, he don’t have numbers like that. You know what I’m saying? I do that in basketball.

Warren Sapp:
This ain’t Lance Alworth or Steve Largent. This is Julian Edelman. The little Jewish guy did work. I mean, no doubt about it. He did work. But no. The hall is for the extra special, not the good.

Dawn Lupul:
It is. I know. I’ve got two of them here with me.

Warren Sapp:
You damn right.

Dawn Lupul:
New England Patriots Hall of Fame though, probably, right?

Warren Sapp:
Oh yeah. You put him in the ring of honor in New England. No doubt about it. The man won a Super Bowl MVP. When you win a Super Bowl MVP you go in the ring of honor. We got to put Dexter Jackson in ours. So yeah, you go up. You put that kind of work … That catch that he made off the top of that damn turf, they lose that game if he don’t make that catch in Atlanta. Wow.

Dawn Lupul:
That’s the thing, he was clutch in the playoffs so people remember the-

Warren Sapp:
Oh, he was clutch. The bigger the game, the better he played. Yeah. He’s big time, but he’s not a Hall of Famer though.

Dawn Lupul:
No. There’s a few guys ahead of him that-

Warren Sapp:
You need a body of work.

Dawn Lupul:
You need a body of work and there’s so many guys ahead of him who aren’t there yet. Sterling Sharpe, Cliff Branch.

Warren Sapp:
Too many. Too many.

Dawn Lupul:
There’s a lot. Hines Ward we talked about.

Warren Sapp:
Have we got Art Monk in yet? I think they did.

Dawn Lupul:
I think they did. Yeah.

Warren Sapp:
I think they did. I think they did in the eight years I’ve been up there. Yeah.

Dawn Lupul:
So we talked about evaluating players and this is something … Okay. So betting’s a huge thing. Sports betting is exploding.

Warren Sapp:
Really?

Dawn Lupul:
Have you heard? Did you know?

Warren Sapp:
No. [crosstalk 00:47:53].

Dawn Lupul:
BetUS, America’s favorite sports book. You bet, you win, you-

Warren Sapp:
Ass gets paid.

Dawn Lupul:
Ass gets paid. So go there. Sign up. You want to get in on it. What a lot of professional handicappers do, or bettors, professional sports bettors do, is they will assign … You guys probably know this or maybe you don’t. They’ll assign a number value to players. Like Warren, let’s say you’re going to miss a game, they might say, “Okay, so the opposing team should be able to score two more points.” So add that in. They put that in a little notebook. Or Gary’s minutes are limited or something so they might say, “Oh, okay. Well, there’s a big chunk of the defense gone.” So they’re saying, “Okay. The total was 215, now I think it can go to 220 without Gary the Glove out there.”

Warren Sapp:
Okay.

Dawn Lupul:
Okay. So we have some stats comparisons for you. You guys aren’t numbers. Except your both number one in my heart, but you’re not numbers.

Warren Sapp:
All right.

Dawn Lupul:
Okay. All right. We’ll start with Gary. Basketball player comparisons. Now, these stats are from stathead.com. This is huge business. These numbers mean a lot to people. We’re going to compare you, Gary, to a mystery player. And this is actually somebody who is playing right now. Has been in the league for a few years.

Warren Sapp:
And we got to guess who it is?

Dawn Lupul:
If you can. It’s kind of a tough one. I’ll give you a team if we get through this. So Gary your average, 16.3 points a game. Our mystery player, 15.9. 6.7 assists, he has 6.3. 3.9 rebounds, he has four. 1.8 steals for Gary, you stealing fool.

Warren Sapp:
Chris Paul.

Dawn Lupul:
No. You can’t guess yet. I haven’t even given all the stats yet. One and a half steals for mystery player. Field goal percentage, .466 for my Hall of Famer and .456 for the dude. The playoffs, the numbers change a little bit. They change a little bit. Gary, 14 points per game, player mystery has 17. Ooh, the plot thickens. 5.3 assists for Gary, 5.5 for our other guy. 3.7 rebounds versus 4.5. Little bit more going on in the playoffs. 1.4, 1.4. Steals are the same. Field goal percentage, virtually the same. 441 for Gary and 453 for Mr. X. The big difference here, now they come up in numbers. This is math. I’m so good at math. But you have win shares is an estimate of the number of wins contributed by a player. Gary, you are 11.1. This guys is 2.8. So this is where a Hall of Fame career separates from just stats.

Warren Sapp:
Numbers.

Dawn Lupul:
Just numbers. Value over replacement player. This is what people betting use. This is a key number. 5.3. That’s a measure to estimate if you were to replace you with just a random average player. 5.3 for you and dude, 1.7. So that’s the big difference. Do you have any idea? I could give you a team. But this guy’s still playing now.

Warren Sapp:
Now?

Dawn Lupul:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). There’s only six billion NBA players so this should be easy to guess.

Gary Payton:
He a point guard?

Dawn Lupul:
Yes.

Warren Sapp:
Yeah. Got to be a point guard.

Dawn Lupul:
Point guard, shooting guard. Yeah. Yes.

Gary Payton:
Just give me how many years he been in the league and I’ll let you know.

Dawn Lupul:
I think since ’13. 2013 I think it is.

Gary Payton:
Westbrook.

Warren Sapp:
No.

Dawn Lupul:
No. I’m going to eliminate-

Warren Sapp:
John Wall.

Gary Payton:
Been in the playoffs too much and scored too many. I don’t think it’s Chris Paul neither.

Warren Sapp:
No. Nah, it ain’t Chris Paul. He had more assists and less scoring. Less scoring, more assists.

Dawn Lupul:
This is tough. I’ll-

Warren Sapp:
Hold on, hold on.

Dawn Lupul:
What, you want to guess another one? You got another one?

Warren Sapp:
Hold on, hold on, hold on. One more.

Dawn Lupul:
Okay.

Warren Sapp:
Let me see my points per game. You said 15.9?

Dawn Lupul:
15.9 points per game.

Gary Payton:
In the regular season and then averaged 17 in the playoffs.

Dawn Lupul:
17 in the playoffs, yeah.

Warren Sapp:
Rondo.

Dawn Lupul:
No. It’s a team in the east.

Gary Payton:
No, he don’t score that much.

Warren Sapp:
East?

Dawn Lupul:
A contender in the east.

Gary Payton:
In the east?

Warren Sapp:
Got to be Philly then.

Dawn Lupul:
No.

Warren Sapp:
No Philly?

Gary Payton:
Is it, what’s his name, from Boston? The guard? Walker? Kemba?

Dawn Lupul:
No. He plays with Giannis Antetokounmpo.

Warren Sapp:
Oh, Milwaukee. The Blogordon. Gordon.

Gary Payton:
Oh, what’s his name? No, not Gordon. The little guard that just got paid. What’s his name?

Warren Sapp:
Lopez? No. That’s a center.

Dawn Lupul:
Rhymes with true.

Warren Sapp:
Jrue.

Gary Payton:
What’s his name?

Dawn Lupul:
Jrue Holiday.

Gary Payton:
Jrue Holiday.

Warren Sapp:
Jrue Holiday.

Dawn Lupul:
Jrue Holiday. You knew it. You had it.

Gary Payton:
Yeah, that’s what I was saying. I couldn’t get it. I was about to say, he’s got brothers in the league. Jrue Holiday.

Dawn Lupul:
So those numbers, it’s interesting. And again, we mentioned it with Jonathan is there’s that X factor. Warren, when I asked you if you were coachable you’re like, “Just get out of my face.” You knew what you needed to do to be the best.

Warren Sapp:
No, no, no, no, no. Love, love, love, great players want to be coached. I want to be pushed. After I won defensive player of the year I walked in Marinelli’s office and he asked me … I walked in with my chest stuck out. I said, “Now what’s up?” He said, “I want your play to catch up with your athleticism.” I said, “What does that mean?” He said, “What can you do athletic?” I said, “Almost anything.” He said, “Let’s go.” So I put up 16 and a half the next year. So that’s what you want. You want a challenge and you want to be pushed to the limits of where you can go and where you think you can go. Because I didn’t think he could push anymore and boy, he shot me a whole nother level. And then after we got a 16 and a half he’s like, “Do we have a championship?” So now I’m like okay, now I got to go at this too so let’s rock this thing. Any which way you can go to have a man look a little deeper into himself when he a good player, it helps everybody.

Dawn Lupul:
Gary, did those numbers surprise you at all? The comparison with Holiday?

Gary Payton:
Well, if I look at Jrue and look at what he did during the season when he was with New Orleans at first, no it doesn’t. Because in the playoffs he plays a bigger role. But as we get to the point where it separate and the the thing, he doesn’t show up every time in big games and playoffs and stuff like I did. You know what I’m saying? It was a big difference with him. They didn’t go to him like they went to me. I was a focal point of everything. So that was a big difference between. His numbers, yes, I believe in that. His numbers is good because he can play that way. He showed that against Portland that year when he dominated Portland. Him and Rondo. They dominated Portland and took Damon out of the league. I believe that. Yeah. But, as you say, the numbers get a little different when you … He’s not a focal point. He’s not a superstar. So when it gets to a superstar-

Warren Sapp:
It’s a more open game Gary. You ain’t got to defend that. It’s a more open game now. They ain’t defending, they ain’t checking, they ain’t doing none of that. They ain’t doing none of that.

Gary Payton:
They not doing that.

Dawn Lupul:
It’s different.

Warren Sapp:
They ain’t knocking nobody down that’s going in the lane and get split open. None of that. None of that.

Gary Payton:
It’s a little different.

Warren Sapp:
It’s open. It’s open. They play analytics. I’ll outscore you.

Gary Payton:
Yeah. When it got to me, it was only two players, me and Shawn and Detlef. You go to us. In his game, he has three and four, five other people that he can go to and they’re wide open. They just do whatever. So it’s a little different. But I like his numbers because he’s a solid basketball player.

Warren Sapp:
No, he play a good game. He play a good game. He’s all right.

Gary Payton:
He’s a solid basketball player.

Warren Sapp:
Yeah, in the game they play now. In the ’90s, he’d a got swamped. No. No. No. They wouldn’t even put him on the floor.

Gary Payton:
He wouldn’t even been 15 or 17 in the playoffs. He would have been averaging about nine or eight. You know what I’m saying?

Warren Sapp:
Six.

Gary Payton:
Yeah. He’d have been averaging something like that because-

Warren Sapp:
Ugly.

Gary Payton:
Because we would have been locking down during the playoffs.

Warren Sapp:
Different game. Different game.

Gary Payton:
Yeah. The playoffs would have been a lockdown.

Warren Sapp:
Different game. They’d have knocked his little ass out. He’d hit his head on that ground and would have like, “Hey man, they playing like that?” Yes.

Dawn Lupul:
Sometimes it’s like soccer now where they fall down and they didn’t even get touched.

Warren Sapp:
Did you see the kid throw the ball in and hit the soccer player in the chest and he almost fell like he got shot by a gun? And it was just a kid throwing the ball back in and hit him in the chest. I’m like, lord have mercy. Man, that’s a kid.

Dawn Lupul:
And the academy award-

Gary Payton:
That’s what they are taught now.

Warren Sapp:
Oh yeah. Any contact.

Gary Payton:
To fake. So that you could go to the monitor and see and you can get all the flagrant fouls, all the kick out the games. That’s what they do so they can get them referees to go over there and evaluate and then they make that stupid decision of kicking somebody out for making a play. A play, man. I’ll be looking at, I was like, “Did he just get shot by somebody? I don’t believe that.” But that’s just the way the game goes, man. That’s the way it is.

Warren Sapp:
They flop good. They flop good, boy. They flop good.

Dawn Lupul:
They flop really good. Okay Warren, I’ve got one for you too. But this is actually a player that played in the past. So no longer playing. Retired such as yourself.

Warren Sapp:
Oh. You got to go get somebody that’s BS, before Sapp. I like it.

Dawn Lupul:
Before Sapp. Actually, yes. Before Sapp. Also a Hall of Famer. You probably guess this one. So let’s look at your tackles. We’ve got Warren had 440 solo tackles, mystery player 471. This one’s going to be too easy for you. 138 assists for you, 85 for him. 96.5 sacks, almost 99, for Warren. 137.5 sacks.

Warren Sapp:
Johnny Randle.

Dawn Lupul:
Yeah. I knew this was going to be too easy, right? As soon as you hear 137.5-

Warren Sapp:
Wow. Once you said 137 it’s over. That’s Johnny Randle. Yeah. That’s Johnny Randle all day.

Dawn Lupul:
Yeah. Both interior defensive linemen. And it was amazing that you got 96.5. How amazing is it that he got 137.5? But different kind of style of teams, right? I mean, that has something to do with it too. The way the defense is set up? No? He’s just that impressive? I’ve lost you. I’ve lost Warren.

Warren Sapp:
I’ve got the worst internet in the world. I got the worst internet on earth. I don’t know-

Dawn Lupul:
You were saying something really good. Say it again.

Warren Sapp:
No, no. I know. Friday’s coming. Johnny didn’t rush the passer. I mean, Johnny didn’t play the run, he rushed the passer. And they used to show me the tape of him so we could squeeze the holes and make it easier so we can do the things that we needed to do. And then Johnny went out to Seattle and they let him play end and he had like 16.5 and 15.5 in two years out there so that’s like 30 right there. So he around 100 if you leave him at D tackle, but they put him out there at end in Seattle and they just let his ass go. He was out there just rushing. I said, “John, you going to play any run?” “Nope. I want the quarterback.” I said, “All right. Go on and do your thing, boy.” I mean, he’s a monster, boy. Spinning, whirly derbish. Ooh, that boy could go.

Dawn Lupul:
And he was inducted into the hall in 2010.

Gary Payton:
And then put all that stuff on his face. I said, “Boy, you crazy.” [crosstalk 00:58:46].

Warren Sapp:
Oh, regulators, mount up.

Gary Payton:
Looked like he was possessed.

Warren Sapp:
Mount up. Yeah. Yeah, he played.

Dawn Lupul:
I mentioned earlier the baby Sapp and of course everybody always looking for another glove. It’s not easy evaluating talent. Somebody said something very nice about you, Warren, just a couple of days ago. He is a nine time pro bowler, eight time all pro and a Super Bowl winner. And he was on a podcast called Eye Test for Two. He’s also a Hall of Famer. He said bar none, you were the toughest guy. He was a guard and he said there was only one guy and it was Warren Sapp who was the toughest.

Warren Sapp:
Faneca.

Dawn Lupul:
Yeah.

Warren Sapp:
That’s Faneca.

Dawn Lupul:
Yeah.

Warren Sapp:
Yeah, Faneca gave me some love.

Dawn Lupul:
Alan Faneca played for Pittsburgh. He did give you some love.

Warren Sapp:
Yeah. 66. That’s double nine upside down and I like Faneca too. He one of the boys, you better bring your hard hat to the stadium when you go see his ass because he’s there for four quarters and he ain’t going nowhere. I like Faneca too. Yeah. We’re going to have a good time at the Hall of Fame this year. We’re going to get dead drunk and tell some stories.

Dawn Lupul:
He said that obviously trash talking was a big part of the game, but he said it’s not like everybody thinks because when you’re down and you got the hand in the dirt and you’re trying to catch your breath-

Warren Sapp:
No, you ain’t got … Hey listen, you got to make plays to talk trash and you ain’t going to make many plays against Alan Faneca. That’s why he in the Hall of Fame. Trust me. That fella could block.

Dawn Lupul:
He actually … Yeah. I looked at that too. You had four games against him. You were involved in 11 tackles. You had one sack, one tackle for a loss and two quarterback hits. So he was able to contain you a little bit more than 99.9% of the other guys.

Warren Sapp:
Oh no, no, no. It was a good game against him. And then Ben Roethlisberger knew he had to get rid of it and Mason too. The quarterback’s in there on the game too. They know they got to get rid of that ball. So trust me, it’s just one of those games. 17-10 I think and they were the last team to beat us before we won the championship, but I didn’t have my quarterback that night. But it’s okay.

Dawn Lupul:
It’s okay. We move on. Gary, who was the one guy who was your kryptonite? Is there one guy that stands-

Warren Sapp:
No, no, no, no, no. Okay.

Dawn Lupul:
Not kryptonite, but-

Warren Sapp:
Okay. Yeah, I was his. I was the guy he said I worked hard against him.

Dawn Lupul:
And you were valid competitor.

Warren Sapp:
Nah, nah, nah. He’s not in the top two of my guards that I faced.

Dawn Lupul:
Ooh. Who is?

Warren Sapp:
Randall McDaniel and Larry Allen.

Dawn Lupul:
Okay. Naming names.

Warren Sapp:
12 and 13, 14 Pro Bowls in a row between both of those two. Them two there, Jesus. Look up the stats on them though Dawn.

Dawn Lupul:
I’m going to.

Warren Sapp:
I had some sacks on them though. I had some sacks on them.

Dawn Lupul:
I’m going to look that up.

Warren Sapp:
I didn’t play Pittsburgh much.

Dawn Lupul:
Yeah. How about you Gary? Was there one or two guys that really stand out in your mind that before the game you’d be saying, “Oh boy, we’re in for it tonight.”?

Warren Sapp:
Nope.

Gary Payton:
No, it’s only one.

Warren Sapp:
Stockton?

Gary Payton:
That’s it.

Warren Sapp:
Stockton.

Gary Payton:
Stockton. He was the only one that gave me the problems. He gave me a lot of trouble. That was because, Dawn, I talk trash and I can usually talk a lot of guys out of their game and then I would back it up. With him, he wouldn’t listen to nothing. And I always tell people he played 34 minutes. He gets on the floor and you got to guard him 94 feet. What he did is he’d shoot 10 times, he makes eight. He fooled around, he shoots six or seven free throws, he makes six or seven free throws. And then all of a sudden he had 16 assists. Then he comes right back and gives you five or six rebounds. Then all of a sudden you look on the side and he’s got four and five steals. Now, you’re thinking that and then all of a sudden I look up on the board and we down 20. And then I’m looking at me and I got 30 points and 10 assists, couple of couple here, but we down 20. And then I look at his stats and I see him with 26, 16, seven, and five steals. And I look around and I say this is incredible. You know what I’m saying? And he only played 34 and I’m playing 45.

Gary Payton:
So I’m just saying, it doesn’t equal out. And then I’m guarding him and I’m coming off picks. He’s hitting me with picks, he’s back picking me, he’s throwing dimes to Karl Malone, he’s shooting jump shots all net, getting to the bucket whenever he feels like it. And I said I can’t not pay attention to him. Everybody else I can probably not pay attention for a little bit. But every single minute I have to pay attention because he’s going to make a difference in the game if I don’t. And that is really tiring to me when I got to do that. And when I go sit down for four or five and he’s in the game, that’s when we get down 20 or 30. You know what I’m saying? So I think he was my kryptonite until I had to figure him out. And then I had to get a kryptonite suit. And then I got one and then I figured him out.

Gary Payton:
So that guy right there is the only guy that I really feared every night going into Salt Lake or him coming into Key Arena. And everybody else I figured out very much because I could talk to them because they’re going to try to talk back to me and then that wouldn’t work. It wasn’t going to work for you to talk back to me. It wasn’t going to work so he wouldn’t and he got the best of me a lot until 1996 and I overtook him. And then I started to understand how I play him. I went to the Finals and things like that. And then I just started figuring him out and then they started switching Byron Russel on me. He couldn’t guard me no more because I started understanding what I should do against him. And then it took a turn and I became the number one point guard in the NBA for the next six years.

Dawn Lupul:
The glove. You were the glove. The Hall of Fame glove.

Warren Sapp:
I wish I had somebody like that I had to take down GP. I wish I did. Because ain’t nothing like conquering that shit, dawg. You going home, boy, you don’t eat, you don’t sleep, no sex, no nothing. You got to figure out a way I got to get past his ass.

Dawn Lupul:
You’ve got to get him.

Warren Sapp:
I got to figure out a way to get his ass.

Gary Payton:
Every time I went to Salt Lake, Warren, that was I did. I said, “Man, I ain’t going out. I ain’t doing nothing.” Every time he’d come, I’d go home. When he’d come to Seattle, I’d be like damn-

Warren Sapp:
I got to see him. I got to see him.

Gary Payton:
Yeah. It was a nightmare for six years. For six years it was a nightmare playing him, man. And I said, man … And that’s why everybody see him when I asked him to induct me into the Hall of Fame, him and George Gervin. I idolized George since I was little and then him, I idolized him in the sport.

Warren Sapp:
Yeah, because you wanted his spot.

Gary Payton:
Right. I never could tell him that when I’m playing because I would never let anybody understand that about me. I would never tell you that I’m afraid of you. Because I don’t want nobody to have advantage over me. But after my career I told him, “Yeah, I was scared of you every night.” You know what I’m saying? That’s why I had to talk through. I had to do something. I had to. But I idolized him and I got my game better watching him in the NBA all the time. And I’m telling you, Dawn and Warren, every time I had a game and we came out and we won, first thing I went to and I told the people, “Yo, give me John’s stats when they played.” I said, “Let me see what he did.” And when I looked at it, he had 32 minutes and he was 20, 17, and four, and stuff. I was like, “Goddamn.”

Warren Sapp:
Efficient with it.

Gary Payton:
And I said, “I got to be like this every night.” So that was it.

Dawn Lupul:
I love it. It’s that X factor. They brought out the best in you and you guys were the best. It is time to wrap this show up. Before we go we are going to slide on over to the west coast for The Fit With the Glove and see what Gary would like to talk to us about today.

Gary Payton:
Well Dawn, and then Warren, this is my fit. When you’re growing up in a small town and you are the one growing up and you go through the things and then you get to a point where you have to do the things that get you out of somewhere that you want to get out of but you have a father that’s grooms you. Then when that person becomes that person and then all of a sudden he have kids and the kids don’t grow up the same way that you grew up. And all of a sudden you’re with that child all your life, and then all of a sudden he’s there with you, there’s practice, there with you at that. Warren can understand. He’s going with his daughter to soccer and doing things like that. And they grow up. And then all of a sudden they start to become their own person. And then all of a sudden they have to make the decision of do they want to be just like their father or mother. In my thing, my son, Gary the second, chose to go to Oregon State and follow behind me, a legend out of Oregon State, and live up to what he was, being the name that he had in Gary Payton. He did that.

Gary Payton:
He was a junior college All American and then all of a sudden he became All American with Oregon State. All of a sudden he goes to the pros and then all of a sudden, now he goes to the Golden State Warriors, the home of his father. His father. And I think that’s a great fit. If you look at this Golden State team, they do not have guards like that, only in Bazemore, that my son can go in there with his athletic ability and D people up and give Curry enough time to do what he want to do without guarding and doing everything he can. Draymond can do it. If Draymond and my son and Bazemore get on the floor and get a unity, I think this Golden State team have a chance of getting to that eighth spot. I think this is a great fit for my son to be at the Golden State Warriors and do the things that he has to do. And I just pray and hope that he does what he has to. I’m grateful for the Golden State Warriors of giving him this opportunity. I’m going to see him play when they get back off the road.

Gary Payton:
It’s going to be a great feeling for me to go and ride through my hometown to go see my son play somewhere where I grew up at and he has the opportunity to play this game and Steve Kerr is liking him right now. So to me, Golden State is a golden fit for Gary the second. And I hope this will be his last journey and where he can be fitting and then he’ll be where his roots at. His grandmother, his aunties, his uncles, his cousins, his father. Everybody right here so we can go into this arena and see him play on 23rd of this month when California opens back up and we can go see him play.

Dawn Lupul:
Here, here. Because horses don’t make sheep.

Gary Payton:
Sheep.

Warren Sapp:
Nope. Nope. Nope. They don’t.

Gary Payton:
They don’t.

Warren Sapp:
And we got a championship this weekend. My baby play tomorrow at 4:00. We in the semifinals so I will be giving y’all a update. We might be in the championship game on Saturday maybe. I’m getting on a plane right after I get off with y’all. I got to go to Georgia. We going to Kennesaw, Georgia y’all. Y’all pray for me. Y’all pray for me.

Dawn Lupul:
Go Mercedes.

Warren Sapp:
There’s four rivers in the world that flow south to north. St. John’s river is one of them. Do you know why the St. John’s river flows south to north?

Dawn Lupul:
No.

Warren Sapp:
Because Georgia sucks.

Dawn Lupul:
You said that last week. Why didn’t I know the answer.

Warren Sapp:
My bad.

Dawn Lupul:
Your bad. Go Mercedes Sapp. Go Gary Payton II.

Warren Sapp:
Yes.

Dawn Lupul:
What other show brings you a Hall of Fame basketball player and a Hall of Fame football player? None. Just this one. This is Unfiltered, brought to you by BetUS. You guys are beautiful as always. Oh, BetUS, America’s favorite sports book. You bet, you win, your ass gets paid.

Warren Sapp:
Bet, you win, your ass gets paid.

Dawn Lupul:
No pain. No pain.

Warren Sapp:
Paid.

Dawn Lupul:
Be good.

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